How to Level Up Your Executive Presence with Joanna Lovering
Joanna Lovering
“I want to see more gender diversity in boardrooms. In order to get there, it’s not about what you know, but how you convey what you know.”
What happens when your career, or your business, becomes your entire identity? Boundaries get blurred, you feel guilty saying no, you avoid conflict, and your happiness becomes defined BY your work, and how successful you are—or are not. Joining me for a conversation about how to uphold your boundaries and level up your influence, is executive presence coach and founder of Copper + Rise, Joanna Lovering.
In this episode, Joanna opens up about her childhood and her relationship with her mother, her relationships at work, in her career, and as a business owner, and dissects the enmeshment that connects them all. We also talk about how we can choose to show up differently, develop a sense of agency, and determine our true priorities.
Talk topics included
The three pillars of executive presence: how you speak, how you act, and how you look
How to think about executive presence, including data points and how you want to be perceived
Joanna’s adventures in showing up as her full self at work
The importance of keeping lines of separation between you and your business
The problem with seeing colleagues as your “family” (if they’re not) or your business as your “baby”
The Priorities Triangle and how it can help you show up with intentionality
The recent business shower Joanna threw to honor Copper + Rise’s fifth birthday
Joanna’s official bio:
Joanna is an executive presence coach, workplace psychologist, and fashion stylist who helps primarily women develop transformative leadership skills. Using her engaging and approachable method, Joanna teaches women how to show up with character, confidence, and style.
Joanna earned her M.A. in Social-Organizational Psychology from Columbia University before taking on leadership development roles at Tiffany & Co., JetBlue, and Daily Burn, among others. After accumulating over ten years of leadership development experience in a mix of corporate and start-up settings, she founded Copper + Rise in 2017.
Joanna founded Copper + Rise to teach women what no one teaches them about leadership. Over the years, she’s realized that leveling up in your career isn’t just about what you know. We also have to look, speak, and act like leaders—and that’s where executive presence comes in.
Joanna defines executive presence as how you speak, how you act, and how you look. It’s the style and substance of who you are. Joanna’s background in psychology, leadership development, and fashion styling is the trifecta she brings to this work.
Joanna’s writing and insights on leadership, presence, and style have been featured in RealSimple, Fast Company, HerMoney, HuffPost, The Muse, Glassdoor, Fairygodboss, TheLadders, and more.
Show transcript:
Nikki Groom
Hello, Joanna.
Joanna
Hi. Hi. I'm so happy to be here.
Nikki Groom
I am so thrilled to be interviewing you today because I just adore you and your energy and you're doing such amazing work in the world. So thank you for being here with me.
Joanna
So looking forward to this. Yeah, I
Nikki Groom
know we're gonna have an amazing conversation. You are an executive presence coach, workplace psychologist and fashion stylist helping primarily women develop Transformative Leadership skills.
Joanna
Let me be honest, I do work primarily with women, not because men don't need that help. Hmm. I think they've had a lot of help over the years. So I really work with women, because that's my passion.
Nikki Groom
Yes, I love it. I love it. And it sounds like your mission really is I'm reading from your bio here is about how to teach women to show up with character confidence and style. So tell us a little bit more about that. And why does doing this work really appealed to you? Well,
Joanna
first and foremost, I have realized over the years that my mission in life and in my life's work is plain and simple, because I can say it directly. But it's not so simple in our society, which is I want to see more gender diversity in boardrooms period. I want to see more gender diversity in C suites in the upper ranks of corporate America, corporate world businesses, as well as more entrepreneurs, that are women and non binary. Yes, that is my purpose. And what I have learned over the years, Nikki, is that in order to get there, it's not just about what you know, it's also about how you convey what you know, we so often hear, it's not about what you know, it's who you know. And yeah, yeah, sure, that's fine. That's about networking, and influencing, which is a little bit of executive presence, but I really focus on how can you convey what you know, in a way that you will be heard, that is the piece of leadership and influencing that no one teaches you until me but
Joanna
we say show up with character, confidence and style, I see it as three pillars. It's how you speak, how you act, and how you look, which kind of we can talk more about those three pillars, but it's, it's the character and the style in which you convey your expertise.
Nikki Groom
So it's not just about what you know, and who you know, of course, that is always helpful. But
Joanna
that's another podcast.
Nikki Groom
Yeah. But how you speak, act, and look, and how that affects the way that you're, you're hurt. And so what I'm hearing is that we do have a degree of control over this, because obviously, there are oppressive systems working against so many of us, but we do have some control over that. So will you talk us through those three pillars? Or? I mean, I feel like the the speaking one is so fundamental, what are some of the things that you teach around that piece?
Joanna
Happy to get into that. But I'll just start by saying, Listen, we we know the environment very well in that the system was not made for you and I aka those who identify as female, and it was certainly wasn't built for women of color. Right? So while I feel like in 2022 2023, we are still going through a little bit of a seminar this renaissance. And shout out to all of our women who were fighting for equal rights in the early 70s. Thank you so much. And we're continuing that work. So I do think we are better off the fact that we're having conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion and belonging, we're doing better however, the system still exists. There are still boys clubs, there are still people at the top who make it harder for underrepresented groups to get to where they are. And so while I wish I could say that the system has been completely rebuilt. It is not rebuilt, yet. We are slowly but surely getting there. All of this to say is that we still have to play the game a little bit. We're working on building a new game, but we're still playing the game a little bit. And so the way that I view executive presence skills is that we do have control, as you said, we have control, not necessarily over how people view us, because a lot of their views are based on their past experiences and whatever filters came from their family of origin, culture of origin, whatever. But we have a lot of control over how we influence those people. And how we can intentionally show up in a room in order to influence those people. Those are the control factors that we're talking about. And I've bucketed, those control factors into the three buckets, as we already said, speaking, acting and looking, speaking has everything to do with the words that you say, but also the way you sound when you say them. And that's something that I got from my acting training many, many years ago. So yes, I have people do tongue twisters and things like that. But it's the way you sound. When you say the words that you say, how you act, that bucket is more about interacting when other people are in the room, especially when things aren't going so well. When conflict comes into play. How do you have grace under fire, and maintain your poise and your presence in those moments? That's a biggie. And then last, but not least, is the how you look bucket. And yes, it's, of course, how you dress yourself and adorn yourself and I'm a fashion stylist. So I find that part very fun. But it also has to do with gestures, and facial expressions and body language. So we've run the gamut. But basically, it's all of the pinpoints or all of the data points that other people can take in and make a judgement about you. And I say, why not take those data points and optimize them the best we can, according to science, and according to your authentic persona, and how you want to be perceived. Let's just turn it up to a loving, shall we. So that's what my work is all about. Nikki,
Nikki Groom
I adore you for saying that. I'm taking that moment because it is so important. And I love that you approach all of the work that you do with that lens and really, truly having so much empathy for the people that you serve and support. I'm really curious. And I obviously know you so I have some insight into your backstory. But when you look back at your career, even before you became an entrepreneur, was there like a through line for you that brought you to doing this work today? Or what was some of the catalysts that made you think this is the work that I want to do helping other people in this manner?
Joanna
Absolutely. There are through lines. And first of all, let it be known that my career has been a very winding road, not one that is linear at all. So anyone out there who's listening who's thinking, Oh, my next step, I don't think it's going to have anything to do with my college degree, or anything to do with what I thought I was going to focus on three years ago. I just want to say welcome to The Club. And I think that's okay, as long as the through line needs to be what do you value? And what are you passionate about? That's it. And so for me when I look back, yes, I started my career in the beauty industry in marketing, believe it or not, and then I came to a point where I was like, this isn't this isn't interesting, as much as I love makeup and haircare and skincare and I've worked with amazing people at incredible companies. It's kind of like this isn't really intrinsically fulfilling me. I'm really sorry, selling hairspray. Not really intrinsically fulfilling me. But you know what does intrinsically fulfill me I really love being the point person for everyone. I remember my desk I was working at redkin which is a L'Oreal USA brand and my desk because I was the most recent person hired. It was right next to our front door. And I remember I was basically the Welcome Wagon. I would be the first person to say hi, and I would say also be the person that would get asked the questions I need to see so and so I'm here to see so and so where do I go? Or where's the bathroom. And that may seem so minuscule to so many people. But I, after a few years ended up being a little bit of this, I don't know this mother hen type of character, and I loved it. And I thought to myself, if this work in marketing isn't intrinsically fulfilling me, maybe it's a world of human resources. And that's what I eventually ended up doing was I went to grad school at Columbia full time for Organizational Psychology. And my focus was always I really want to ignite potential in others. My mother was a teacher, and I have a lot of those teaching vibes in myself. And I love helping people get unstuck, and unlock whatever barriers are around them, to help them get to their next step. So that's kind of the through line for me. So whether it was working at Red kid, and that's where I kind of discovered it. Then I went into the world of leadership development at places like Tiffany and Company, Jet Blue, and Citi Group, and great companies. But eventually, this redheaded Italian girl from Jersey isn't so great at working for other people, Nikki?
Nikki Groom
Well, I was gonna ask you actually, yeah. Did you have? Was there any times when? I mean, you teach executive presence now? Yeah. Is it something that you yourself mastered? Or did you have any adventures when it came to showing up as your full self at work?
Joanna
Ah, yes, adventures and executive presence. Number one, listen, even though I'm a coach of executive presence. I don't know if anyone ever masters this stuff. I just happen to read up on it a lot. And I, I'm relatively self aware. But who will ever masters anything in the world of psychology, I don't know, really, I tell a story to all of my clients. And at the beginning of most of my webinars Nikki, about how I got interested in an executive presence. And it's a story about when I actually kind of failed. In a way, it's my end of year performance review, at my most favorite job, my most favorite role. And I'm getting really high marks, as I expected, thank you very much. But as I expected high marks on the quality of my work, getting things done going above and beyond, you know, all that stuff, that the hustle in me and my youth really contributed to, and then my manager flips the page. And the second page is all about competencies, or how you do your work. And all of a sudden, I'm getting this feedback that I had heard inklings of before, but never as formally, things like, you intimidate people in meetings, you talk a lot, the volume of my laugh, how my presence can be overwhelming to some people, I gotta tell you, number one, I cried in that performance review, yay. But second, I felt like this was an attack on my character. And I thought to myself, Well, I only have two choices, I can either stay and conform to who knows what some sort of gray corporate robot or something. Or I can leave and find a group of people that really appreciate me for who I am. And admittedly, that is what I did decide to do. I ended up leaving citing bad culture fit. But as I look back at that situation, because that situation, it really hit me hard. And it was almost, I don't want to say traumatizing, but a little triggering in terms of my self worth, and my value. As I look back, I think to myself, you actually have a third choice. And that third choice is learning and perfecting my authentic executive presence skills, so that I could be a little bit more fluid and mold and flex to the different audiences that I would come across at this company. My persona needed to be different in front of executive members, as opposed to my team as opposed to the group of interns that I managed. These are different parts of Joanna, all authentic parts of Joana and I'm not saying act as a different person, all parts of me, but I needed to be a little bit more intentional as to decide which part I would show in front of whom, for maximum benefit. And so that's kind of how it all got started, I started to get really interested in executive presence was kind of out of this situation of, Oh, this isn't a good culture fit. How could I turn that around to have more control? So that that didn't happen to me? Again, I want things to happen. Because I'm intentional about those things happening, not because they're happening to me, I guess I'd like more control. I don't know, Nikki,
Nikki Groom
you and me both know, I love that you say that. And I love that you were kind of at this crossroads of either I have to go in this direction, so that I can be fully me. And everyone will accept me or I need to go in this direction, which would require me to be this corporate robot. And I don't want to do that. But actually, in hindsight, you see that there might have been this middle path. And it sounds like that's what you're really teaching people about today. That's exactly
Joanna
right. It's the middle path. Because frankly, I left and I started another really great job and this things stuff was happening, let's be honest. And the same stuff was happening, because and I was getting the same maybe with a little tinge, a slightly different flavor, but it was relatively the same feedback. Why? Because listen, we're all creatures of habit. We all show up as our default selves every day. Why? Because it's the easiest. It's the most practiced. And it's worked for us. Default, Joanna got into Columbia, and Carnegie Mellon University and all of these household name companies, she's done really well. But as time goes on, you have more tenure, and you start to sink into your leadership a little bit more. That one way that default, isn't enough anymore. So yes, the middle path is more about being fluid, and flexing our style, so that it works for us and the other people in the room, you and I have
Nikki Groom
had some really interesting conversations, and I hope you're okay with kind of going here with me. And if you're not pleased to shout. So as we began talking about how so often, we people lose their identity at work. And there becomes this kind of lack of separateness between us and our work. And we often see this when maybe employers talk about you all being this big family, or when you don't have any clear boundaries, and you're just kind of pouring everything into being the best member of this family possibly can be. I mean, you spoke about it far more eloquently than I can but talk to me a little bit about that. And that sort of enmeshment that can happen in the workplace, and maybe why it kind of really gets you riled up. Like it does mean oh,
Joanna
it really it really does. I mean, you heard me before, I was like, oh, because a few of these big name companies and one that comes into my mind, in particular, they literally have a value that have the word family in it. And I think that that is one hell of a dysfunctional family. Here's the thing is that you mentioned the word, a measurement. And I find so often, that, especially people that have tenure at a particular company, I find that there's a lack of separateness between them, and me, and, frankly, not to be anti capitalist or something. But that's exactly what these companies want. Because then they can get you on the cheap, they can get you to do things way above and beyond your paygrade and you're not getting compensated for it. I'm not saying that every company is sinister, but what I'm saying is, they want you to be invested and fully integrated, so that you'll stay for a long time. And you'll be as productive as possible for as little cost as possible. That's just the way our capitalist society works. I'm sorry. And so when we introduce this psychological term called a measurement, what that really means is that the boundaries between self and other are really, really, let's say fuzzy, really, really fuzzy. So these actions that many of us take, like responding to emails at 10pm, or getting on a conference call at on a Sunday, some of these dysfunctional behaviors that absolutely lead, by the way lead to burnout, absolutely lead to burnout. It's because we're slowly but surely becoming a meshed. And we're losing ourselves into the big pool of the group, the group being your team, or the company, whatever. And so when I talk about executive presence, and knowing your authentic self, it actually has a lot to do with building reasonable boundaries around yourself and others, in order to stay home and stay sane, you can still be productive, and be a part of that community without being a meshed in it. Because a measurement is where you and your wholeness starts to fall away. And you just become one of the group. This happens not just Nikki, at companies, it happens in families, it happens in friend groups, I'm sure we can all think of these groups that we're a part of where we feel obligated, we feel overextended, and we lose our sense of self. That's what I'm trying to gain back for my clients, when it comes to executive presence. That's part of it.
Nikki Groom
I love that because I really think that does speak to the deeper reasons why you do the work that you do, because I think he had talked about examples like ping pong tables, and nap pods and bringing your dog to work. And not that any of those things are necessarily wrong. But we just need to be aware that they're there for a reason. And that the people oftentimes who we work for, they want all of us they want all of that, unless it's a very aware leader who understands that we need to be doing things differently. And it's so very easy for us, especially if we are people pleasers or people who have struggled with boundaries or who feel like we need to go above and beyond just in order to be to kind of get the credit that we deserve, we recognize. So yes, it can be so easy to let that line of separation just kind of dissolve. And that is when we risk burning out. So I love that you talk about that. Because I hope that anyone listening it kind of just brings that extra layer of awareness when you're thinking about how you show up either to work or even to your own business, even with your own clients. Join I'm sure that you see this play out not just with executive women, but entrepreneurs as well. Or I'm sure you and I both have examples of ourselves when we haven't been able to find that line. And it never ends. Well does it
Joanna
know? Oh, my goodness. I mean, in some respects, it's even easier for entrepreneurs and founders to get a meshed and not have this sense of separateness. Because it's literally this company is literally your baby. The other people that work with you, they don't have the same skin in the game that you have. And I'll never forget, quick story. One of the last small startups that I worked with female founder, brilliant woman, I had a small bit of equity, but I was really a salaried employee, most people did not have a lot of equity besides her and her co founder. And I remember that the part of the reason why I left that job was because I felt like the expectations of me were way out of whack. And I think the reason why they were out of whack was because this wasn't my company. She could stay up until two o'clock in the morning, it was her company, and she had equity. I don't promote a measurement for anyone. But it's understandable why she would be a meshed in it. But for me, I needed to set boundaries because I'm like, This is my baby. I'm sorry, this is your baby. And that didn't go over so well. That I would only work reasonable hours and things like that. So I eventually I left that role. But yeah, I saw it firsthand that even founders can really get into this whirlwind of a mashup
Nikki Groom
even just you saying how we cool our businesses. Oh, babies. I mean, that is seriously probably problematic. Yeah, I remember going through, I may have mentioned this on the podcast before, but I went through the Goldman Sachs 10,000 small businesses program. And one of the biggest takeaways that I came away with, which I probably should have figured out 10 years ago, I've been in business for myself for a while, was that my business was separate from me, and I needed to start treating it that way. Because let's face it, if your business is your baby, or if, if the lines of separation have completely blurred between you and your business, when your business fails, or a client relationship doesn't work out, you can easily take that personally.
Joanna
And I have, right so have I and
Nikki Groom
and if your business does really well, you think that means something about you, where as we just need to kind of unhook ourselves from this roller coaster and realize that that line of separation needs to be there. For our own sanity, like you said earlier. And for our own mental well being, if we don't want to burn out so important.
Joanna
I mean, listen, it's not to say you're gonna walk in every day, the robot and you come in at nine, and you'll leave at five, and you're not going to show any of your personality. That's another extreme, like most of us are not working on assembly lines anymore. I'm not saying don't bring any of your personality to work or don't share anything personal at work. I mean, there is something to be said about how productivity does increase, and creativity increases when you connect authentically with other human beings. So I'm not saying don't make connections, but there is a pretty clear line as to when those relationships with those groups become dysfunctional. And we have to be just really aware as to who's number one here. Number one is you. And so many times you mentioned the word people pleasers. But so many times women get caught up in this people pleasing thing, where all of a sudden, everybody else comes first before them. And that that is a measurement that is dysfunctional. We got to get out from under that.
Nikki Groom
I could not agree more. Which is why of course you are my guest on this podcast. I'm so via Java, you have tools that you teach people. Is that one of those that you're particularly feeling drawn to talking about and sharing with us today? Yeah, oh,
Joanna
sure. There is one particular tool that I think really relates to what we were just talking about Nikki and this avoiding a measurement and staying sane. And I, I laugh, and I cry, where's my laugh, cry emoji. But the tool that I talk about constantly is called the priorities triangle. And I will say that I have to give credit where credit is due. I've modified it a little bit for myself, but it originally comes from Dr. Marsha Leina hands dialectical behavior therapy. It's a tool that she uses called the triangle of respect. But I called the priority strangle, and basically listened to my voice, and imagined a triangle, an equal lateral triangle where all sides are the same, and all angles are the same. And there's three points to that triangle. Those three points represent in any situation, the three variables that we really need to consider in order to make a decision. And we do this constantly, all day, every day. Let's think about it on a super, super micro level. So I go into Starbucks, when I want to treat, I go into Starbucks, it's right around the corner. And the first thing I need to consider when I'm going into Starbucks is what do I want? So the first point on the triangle, is your objective, or your goal. What is my purpose today in engaging in this environment or this conversation? So when I think about going into Starbucks, my objective is to get my grande oat milk, chai latte, because it is delicious and wonderful. And thank you very much. So that is my objective. So we always think like what do I want to get out of this situation? That's triangle point number one, triangle point number two, are the other people that are involved or affected by In this situation. So for instance, I walk into Starbucks, I see a long line. And as much as I want that grande oatmeal, chai latte, I am not going to cut the line. Because I want to remain respectful to the other people and their objectives that are in this room. So we've got objective, we've got others. And then the third point in the triangle is the one that many of us forget. But it's self, it's us. It's us. So we want to maintain respect for ourselves, our mental health, or physical health. And our values, frankly. So okay, I walk into Starbucks, my objective is to get my chai latte. I see other people there, and I want to respect them. So I'm not going to cut them in the line. And then self, that other pieces of the triangle, I'm running really late. I am always running late Nicky, is just the New Yorker in me. And when I'm running late, I know that if I'm going to stand there in the line, and wait for them to make my drink, I'm going to start to get real anxious, real fast. So I'm going to prioritize myself part of that triangle today. And I'm going to leave Starbucks, so I can go to my meeting. So the deal with the triangle, the priorities triangle is that you are the one that gets to choose which part of the triangle, you're going to tug on. And intentionally put more of your energy into in that moment. If I was in that Starbucks situation, and I really, really wanted my treat, I would really tug on that objective part. And kind of Yes, still respect the others. But the self piece of getting anxious because I have to wait in the line, I would just have to sit in that uncomfortability because my objective is more important. So these types of situations happen every day, think about when you are busy, and your coworker comes to your desk and says, Hey, can I talk to you for a second? And you're in the middle of something, and you're thinking to yourself, Okay, and this is the priorities triangle at work. Okay, my objective is that I have to finish the slide deck that I'm doing. But I want to respect others. And I want to help this person that I want to maintain a relationship with, and I really like them. But I also want to maintain my sanity and not go kooky because all of a sudden, the five minutes with this person turns into 25. You know how that happens. And so we're constantly playing with these points in the triangle to decide which point in the triangle are we going to emphasize in this moment. And the thing is, is that it's always different. It's always, we're always tugging on these different points of the triangle. But the point is that we are the ones who decide, we are the ones who decide, yes, other people put parameters around us. But at the end of the day, we're the ones who get to decide whether we're going to prioritize the goal, others self, or maybe two out of the three. And that is the cost benefit analysis that we do every day all day. I've just put it into a visual depiction. So that was a long winded answer about a tool. But I think that it's the best one to think about when we are thinking about how we show up at work. It's about intentionality. And it's about what our values are and who we want to influence. And that's the priorities triangle at work.
Nikki Groom
So good. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I love how it sounds as though it's less about balance and more like you say this cost benefit analysis, and really weighing the effects of your decisions against how it will make you feel or other people feel or how it will affect your goals. So, so good. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I'm sure we're all visualizing the triangle now. Yeah,
Joanna
you're so right. It's more about the intentions of which side you're going to pull, and not necessarily balance, one might think one might think that, Oh, I really want balance. I just don't think that's reality. I mean, that sounds real nice. But we're not living in a vacuum. And there are constantly priorities tugging at us. And so at least if we can't achieve balance all the time, at least what we can achieve is some sense of control. So life doesn't feel like it's happening to us. That's what that's about. Yeah. It's
Nikki Groom
really about having agency. Yeah. At times like that. Yeah, exactly. Hey, I want to switch gears a little bit, because you did something recently that I thought was the coolest thing ever. I've never seen anyone else doing it. And it just was another reminder of how creative and incredible you are. You hosted a business shower slash party slash fundraiser to honor your company carpet and razors. Fifth place?
Joanna
Sure did. Oh, yes.
Nikki Groom
I love that you did that. Let's
Joanna
talk about this. Yes. Well,
Nikki Groom
Why did you decide to do it in the first place? How did it go? What should people think about if they want to throw themselves a bash? I mean, I feel like it's one of those things that we just don't celebrate usually. So I absolutely love that that you chose
Joanna
to. Yeah, and I will say even in 2022, it was a bold move. I will admit to you that there were some people that really didn't get it, and were not on board. But the people, my closest people in my community were super duper on board. So why did I decide to do it? Okay. As much as I don't want to say my business is my baby. But because we just said like, don't say that, but. But at the end of the day, I am a single woman, I do not have children. I live alone. And I live a very fulfilled life, with lots and lots of different aspects to it. And my business and growing my business from scratch from the ground up and completely bootstrapping it has been a major part of my life. For the past five years, how could it not be? And my thought is, Listen, I love celebrating my friends when they get married? Of course I do. I'm so happy for them. And I'm so happy for them when they get pregnant, and they want to have a baby shower. Yes. And like, let's have a party, let's celebrate you with your friends and family, get the gifts have a registry do all those things. And why can't I have those same types of milestone celebrations, even when I am unmarried? And I don't have any children? I think a modern woman's milestones are different than just getting married, then having a baby. What is 1950? And so I think my milestones, and others like me, are milestones are just as worthy of celebration as anybody else's. So I decided to throw myself a five year anniversary party of my business. I have seen people do business showers, more as fundraisers for the kickoff of their business. But mine kicked off five years ago. So I felt like this was a milestone that I wanted to celebrate. So yes, I rented out restaurants, I had about 20 of my closest collaborators, family and friends. I had a registry.
Nikki Groom
So good. Yes.
Joanna
And it was celebrating me celebrating my business and celebrating my values. And I wanted everybody that I love to be in on it. So that's why I did it. And I loved it. And I hope that my celebration inspires others to do the same. It's such
Nikki Groom
a brilliant thing to do. And thank you so much for talking about it and sharing about it and doing it in the first place. Because I do think that our greatest influence is by choosing how we lead by example. I think it's a wonderful thing to celebrate. So congrats on five years.
Joanna
Thank you. Thank you. I'm proud of myself. Yay and proud of the business and proud of everyone who has supported me. Like you, Nikki.
Nikki Groom
It's my absolute pleasure. Now where can people find you and connect into the work that you're doing? Where's the best place for them to go? What should they check out? Sure.
Joanna
or, well, I'm pretty active on Instagram. So head up copper and rise. Copper CEO PPE are like the metal. It's also the color of my hair. That's why I did that. And AMD rise, and I'm also at Copper and rice.com. That's my website as well. And the website has different things on the Instagram, but if you're an Instagram person, go ahead and on it, and then find me on LinkedIn, frankly, Joanna Lovering, I post different things on LinkedIn than I do on Instagram and my website. So it's three different online channels, but with three different types of info and content.
Nikki Groom
And you also have a fantastic newsletter email that you send out. So definitely recommend subscribing for that. I personally love following you on Instagram, especially because if there's any kind of awards showif you're someone that likes checking out people on the red carpet, Joanna always does a phenomenal job of kind of like, Yes, this is amazing. Look, this look and we'll kind of break it all down for you. So I always enjoy that little commentary.
Joanna
I found out that people look at my Instagram stories over Vogue and II
Nikki Groom
Yeah, I do. I'm just gonna look at Joanna's Instagram. Hey, it was such an absolute pleasure to have you here. I love hearing you talk about the work that you do. And I'm so grateful that you're helping so many to choose how they show up to find that third way. It's just so empowering. So thank you so much.
Joanna
Thanks so so much. What a great conversation. And I hope to hear from any of your listeners hit me up on my website, copper and rise.com Thanks, everybody.