Inclusive and Ethical Virtual Summits With Dawn Serra
Dawn Serra
“You can make it as big or as small as you want. And it doesn't have to be a thing that's impressive by anybody else's standards.”
If you’ve been running a business in the online space for any length of time, you’ll know that a lot of people use outdated marketing methods when promoting things like summits—methods that, quite frankly, feel manipulative rather than relational. In today’s episode of the Movement Makers podcast, I invite Dawn Serra, CEO of Radical Summits, onto the show to talk about how entrepreneurs can create successful, ethical, and inclusive online events and summits that prioritize relationship-building over getting butts in seats.
When Dawn speaks, everything she says is gold. We also talk about manipulative marketing practices, anti-capitalist pricing, accessibility, and why list building shouldn’t be our only focus.
Talk topics included:
The power of online summits and how they bring people together
Why scarcity marketing tactics could be undermining your success
The criteria for creating inclusive and ethical online events
The importance of building trust with your audience if you want to deepen your impact
Dawn’s official bio:
Dawn Serra is the CEO of Radical Summits, a consulting firm committed to supporting entrepreneurs in creating ethical, inclusive, radical online events, and a clinical counselor specializing in mental health, trauma, and pleasure for people in larger bodies. Dawn saw people using exploitative, manipulative, and coercive marketing and sales tactics in the realm of online events, conferences, and list building and wanted to find a new way forward. Radical Summits helps entrepreneurs to vision, plan, strategize, and implement online events that embrace a more liberatory politic.
Show transcript:
Nikki Groom 00:00
Hey there, friend, you are listening to the movement makers podcast a show for people like you who are serious about increasing their impact to create a better world. In these episodes, I invite some incredible guests to join me in having really thought provoking conversations about topics that disrupt the usual ways we think about work, business, and leadership, and that provide you with inspiration to keep going and the knowledge that you are not alone. In today's episode, I invite Dawn Sarah onto the show, Dawn is someone I came across a few years back when planning a summit for a marketing client. And I was immediately struck by the way that Dawn talks about online events. Because if you've been in the online marketing space for any length of time, or had any negative experiences with it, you'll know that a lot of people use outdated methods of promoting things like summits that introduce a lot of scarcity and urgency, and that quite frankly, feel manipulative rather than relational. Dawn, on the other hand, founded radical summits to help support entrepreneurs and creating ethical and inclusive online events that embrace a different way of relating with our audiences. This was one of those conversations with a guest where I almost didn't want to say anything, because when dawn speaks, everything she says is gold. So enjoy the episode. Be sure to subscribe if you're not already. And I'll talk to you again on the other side. Hello, Dawn. How are you?
Dawn 01:38
Ah, I'm doing so well. And I'm really excited to get to spend some time chatting with you today for the podcast.
Nikki Groom 01:47
I feel the same way. It has been a minute and then some since we last Connect. Yeah, well,
Dawn 01:52
We're so busy.
Nikki Groom 01:54
We're so busy dealing with global pandemics and all the rest of it. So I would love to kickstart this interview by just trying to get up to speed with what you're up to right now in the world. Where are you focusing your energy?
Dawn 02:09
Field? Right? Like where am I not know? That's a great question. In addition to some of what we're going to be talking about, around finding really ethical relational ways of doing business and specifically online events. i In the second year of my grad school program, I am getting my masters of counseling right now. And I'm also Sneak Peek most folks don't know this. So your audience is getting like the drop on the new news. But love I am in the process of getting ready to launch a new therapeutic group practice up here in British Columbia. And we are going to be the first group therapy practice in Canada that specializes in Harefield, mental health for people in bigger bodies.
Nikki Groom 02:59
Oh my gosh, I absolutely love the sound of the hat. Yes. Amazing. Amazing. As you had mentioned, the way that you and I first connected was through your work. I love how you describe them as ethical summits or ethical ways of being in business for ourselves and marketing ourselves and being more visible. What first attracted you about summits? And what was some of the stuff that you didn't like that you maybe wanted to disrupt a little bit?
Dawn 03:29
Oh, yeah, I'd say it was probably around like 2010 2012 ish. I was starting to really think about moving out of the corporate world wanting to have an impact that felt really values aligned. I had been in corporate for probably at that point, like 14 or 15 years. And it offered me a lot of things, but it didn't feel fulfilling. I had started doing courses and just kind of checking out the lay of the land, like how does a woman like me start a business, I started attending these at the time. Most of them were TELUS summits, they were audio only and then video started coming on the scene. So I was attending things around like food and wellness and relationships. And I was really drawn to how the creators of these events were getting to be in conversation with their mentors with people they admired. They were able to have discussions that really mattered to them, and they were connecting with international audiences. And I thought, that's a really, really cool way to be able to like learn, connect, build relationship. So that part of it really, I don't know, hooked me and I thought I, there's there's got to be a way that I can start doing something like this, but I was also seeing things happening that I didn't particularly like and I thought there has to be a better way. And I started noticing some themes that Are were pretty similar ways of doing online summits, online conferences. And as I started building my own business, and I started putting enough out in the world that people were paying attention, I started getting invitations to speak at a wide variety of online summits. What really got my attention was how the invitations were almost word for word, the same from people from a wide range of places and industries. And there was this similar kind of hook you with scarcity make you feel like you have to say yes, I just kind of really started realizing like, even though it's flattering, I don't feel particularly good about the fact that I have to prove I'm worthy to speak at your event when you're the one that approached me. And that's when I really started thinking, I want to do this differently. And so I started playing with some ideas got really swept up in my imposter syndrome, put it off for about 18 months until one of my mentors was like, we're making this happen today, and started reaching out to folks on my behalf so that I had to take action. And I got a lot of nose in the beginning because people had been so burned. By the way online events were happening, people who were like, I've tried those, they always over promise under deliver, I feel taken advantage of I don't do those anymore. And I realized that I was really going to have to show people I was doing something different. And as I kind of really came into what would become the model that I started putting out into the world, a lot of those nodes became yeses, because they started seeing that I was actually treating people differently, asking different questions, creating something that was a lot more values aligned, a lot more relational and about community. And then people started asking me, Hey, can you help me do something similar to what you two, which led me to creating radical summits. And for the last six or so years, we've been helping people from a wide range of industries to just really think about online events from a different perspective, asking better questions, rather than just what's in it for me. And then that's connected me with amazing people who really want to find cool, inclusive ways of doing business, including you.
Nikki Groom 07:28
Ah, thank you so much. Well, I love that I think back many years now to when summits first became a thing, and I definitely recall getting those emails, it's like, Would you like to be a part of my Summit? Why yes, I work. That sounds wonderful. And then do you have X number of subscribers, and inevitably, it was like 1000s, and 1000s of subscribers. And you had to send out a certain number of emails and word for word social media posts, and I thought, I don't like any of them. This doesn't feel good anymore. I do not want to be a part of that. So I love that you found this pretty ethical, inclusive, and really, like your company name, radical way of creating online events that do really connect with people that do really build those relationships. What do you think really gives summits an edge over other kinds of marketing? Or how do you see summits fitting into people's kind of marketing mix, if
Dawn 08:26
you will? Well, one of the things I love about online summits is that they're so flexible. I mean, really, with the technology we have available today, you can make them look any way you want. I've seen people put summits on that are stretched out over six months, almost in some ways, kind of like a mini series or a multi episode podcast. I've seen people do really short intense experiences that are almost more like a weekend intensive. So you really can make this however you'd like to kind of some of the common themes are usually there's some central question or idea that you want to explore. And usually you're in conversation with others. So it's not just you kind of sneaking out into the world or putting all of your content forward like you would with a course, it tends to have a little bit more energy to it. Like when you go to a camp or conference or something like that, where the time is really special. You look forward to going to the conference because you know, you're gonna have experiences you can't have anywhere else you kind of mark the time is like, I'm doing something really important, really interesting. I'm gonna connect with all these people. And then the other side of it, you're kind of like coming down, you're kind of exhausted, but wow, what an experience. So it's essentially taking that in person conference and moving it into the online space where there gets to be a shared experience that people move through. That was part of the question that I was asking myself of in person conferences and this was way before COVID. But in person conferences really aren't accessible to a lot of people, there were so many that I wanted to go to over the years that were in another country or on the other side of the country and getting there would have been really expensive, or even the hotel that it's at would have been really expensive the time off the time away from family. So I think what makes online summits really powerful is you get to create a shared experience and bring people together around something that you're really excited about. To do it in a way where there's some feeling of we're in this together, it's connected, but it's accessible. People can do it from their phone, from their car, put the earbuds in or from home, after the kids are in bed and get a chance to participate without having to spend a ton of money and time and energy, they get to just be there because they want to be. And so I think for me that shared experience, that community is something so many of us are longing for. And the opportunity to just be inside of kind of this unique, almost one time experience, I think is part of what really draws people in.
Nikki Groom 11:18
It's interesting, because before today's conversation, if I thought about a summit, I would think an event or series of conversations that happened maybe in a day or a few days or a week. But I love how you talked about the fact that people are really experimenting with that timeframe, and making some really intentional decisions around how they deliver summits? How do you make that kind of decision? Like what kinds of things should you take into consideration
Dawn 11:45
some of my favorite questions, I think, come down to what is sustainable for you, the host, and what is sustainable for your audience. And often, the, I'd say more like mainstream wisdom was put on an event that's just like completely exhausting, something that is 15 speakers a day for three days and just overwhelmed folks. And that's a way to pressure them into then hitting the buy button. Because they can't possibly do all of that. And I really wanted a different experience where I was arriving feeling like I mean, of course, anytime we we launch a thing, it can be kind of stressful, and there's gonna be things we can anticipate as soon as lots of other people interact with it. So that just kind of comes with it. But we're, I don't feel like I'm compromising myself or my health, where my speakers don't feel frantic about the experience and where the participants, you know, they really will have to make some choices, we all live very busy lives. So setting a couple of hours aside for several days is hard to do. But they're gonna be able to see a good chunk of the content within an hour or two, so that at the end of it people like feel like they really had a great experience. And they want more. So I like to start with questions around, what do you feel like you're going to be able to create and deliver without feeling at the end like, oh, wow, I never want to do that to myself and my team again, and what helps your audience to feel cared for, they may feel stretched, they may just because of the reality of their lives want to do more than they can. But they're still not feeling like I miss 90% of the content, you know, I was able to really get a good flavor and fit it into my life. And if I want more, there's some options, you know, for down the road. But just kind of asking around sustainability, what makes sense. So for some people, they want to do a really big event, but only do it once a year or once every other year stretched across seven or 10 days. Some people want to do one talk a week, over multiple weeks, that might be a great fit for someone whose audience is their parents, or their disabled folks, and you're talking about disability justice. Maybe a short intense thing is great for people who are getting ready to launch a small business and need some marketing advice and some motivation to kind of get the ball rolling. So also really thinking about like, who is your audience? And how can you serve them in a really relational way. And that's always what we come back to is the relationship.
Nikki Groom 14:42
Love that. I think that's such great advice, especially around this idea of what is sustainable for you, and what is sustainable for your audience. I think that so much about being in business for ourselves is around finding that balance and not sacrificing what we need and service of others. And at the same time remembering that sometimes especially if we're people pleasers, hello, reformed, or reforming people pleaser. You don't need to cram in all the things or kind of overload folks. But I love that era of thinking more in terms of what is the experience that you're creating for them? And how are they best going to be able to consume the information? Yeah, and really, really make those important connections?
Dawn 15:28
Yeah, because I think, you know, originally summits kind of came about where the focus was, how do I grow my list as fast as possible? And how do I make a whole bunch of money? Now, those are both great things for sustainable business is having a really healthy list of people who are interested in what you have to say, and making enough money so that we can continue doing the work and pay people fairly. So, you know, kind of on the surface, that doesn't seem bad. But the way that it was kind of getting delivered was, how do I extract as much as possible from my speakers, and how do I get the money from my participants as quickly as possible, and there wasn't much headed in the other direction, whereas I'm much more interested in a really mutual exchange. And what I've found and working with people who really want to do that kind of work, is that when we start moving away from scarcity and towards relationship, and generosity, people really want to be a part of that they want to feel good about spending money on something that is really values align, they want to know their money is going towards helping to pay the speakers for their time and labor, or towards being able to be more connected with others like them down the road, they want to be able to revisit really rich, complex, nuanced talks multiple times, so that they can really get all that meat out of it. And you know, really enjoy it and savor it. So this sale I think, can happen either, because we're really manipulating the circumstances and pushing people into it from a place of like scarcity and fewer choices, or people make the sale because they feel really drawn towards it. The yes is really easy and excited. It's something that they want for themselves. And when I think about a sustainable business, I have been burned in the past, I know I'm not alone in this, where I got suckered in with that countdown clock that you know, one time only 70% off, you'll never get this again. And you're kind of like oh, not sure that I want it. But what the heck, I'm gonna do it anyway. And then the content is superficial. It's one big sales pitch, not particularly interesting. I am not going to trust that person. The next time they asked me for my money. But when I'm dealing with someone who is really respectful, who's making a genuine offer, whose content is really interesting and good, I had some time to make the decision, when I make that purchase, I'm so much more likely to purchase from them again. And that's what we have found is that when we kind of shift that conversation to something that's more relational and has a longer tail to it, people might not buy in that moment, but they're much more likely to buy repeatedly down the road. So that's kind of the frame we bring to this of how do we create these events so that it becomes a part of an ongoing relationship and conversation, which is so much more sustainable for us as business owners, because we're not having to constantly hustle for new folks, since we've burned the ones that we've already gotten. We do work bring people in the right ones stay and down the road, we get to continue having a really mutual exchange. And that serves us all.
Nikki Groom 19:02
Yeah, it really comes down to seeing clients, customers, as full people, with an adults with their own minds and their own needs really respecting that. I mean, it's basic human to human connection.
Dawn 19:18
Sometimes that gets lost in business, it really does. It doesn't I think, especially
Nikki Groom 19:23
when you're in line as well, yeah. Because it's difficult. Somebody might say someone's email address, but does that really represent a whole person to you?
Dawn 19:31
Exactly. And it's numbers. It's seductive. When we have these systems that show us these numbers to buy in to more is better. That makes sense. But when we have a list of, I don't know, 200 people or 2000 people, and someone says I can help you double that, that we automatically think wow, more people more money. But I'll tell you our experience. We've worked with some people who have events that are massive. I mean, No, I'm talking like massive. And we had one client for a couple of years who had a really massive event, many 10s of 1000s of people in attendance. But they had gotten some advice from someone outside of our firm, that they really were excited by the potential of what was being offered. And we had said, This really doesn't feel like it's aligned with kind of how we would recommend doing things. If you want to try that we love to see the experiment, unfold our guesses, it's not going to be as effective as you think it'll be. And they decided to go with the other advice. And essentially, what we found is when people are kind of seduced into that more scarcity mindset, and it's much less relational, and it's much more transactional, that, you know, you might have really big numbers as far as attendance goes, but the conversion rates are so much lower. Versus if you have an event where you really are treating people with respect with a focus on consent, you want them to really want it and feel that it's value add, the conversions are so much higher. I mean, we're talking for some events that aren't asking those questions as well, they might convert 5% of their attendees. Whereas for some of our other clients who are just so thinking about the experience of their participants who really care and want them to show up multiple years, who give them something that really matters, just kind of approach it from a very different place, their conversion rates are sometimes 1518 20% or higher. That's a huge difference. But it does mean slowing down kind of asking some questions of yourself, your team your systems. So it just means what we have found is giving yourself a little bit of a longer runway, so that you aren't forced into those scarcity decisions. But you've got a lot more time to think relationally, to think about impact to think about long term, then you give yourself the opportunity to really do things differently.
Nikki Groom 22:20
Can we talk about the money side of things for a minute? Yeah. What do you see working really well in that regard? Or what should people be thinking about when it comes to charging for Summit? So replays and things like that,
Dawn 22:35
the good news is, we've seen a range of things work really well. Usually, when we say something works well. It's because on the other side of it, the host really feels like something meaningful happened. That meaning might be they grew their list, and the people who joined are just so the right people, which is going to make future launches so much easier. It might mean they got to connect with some mentors that they've been admiring for years, and now have all these collaboration opportunities. And it might mean, hey, I made enough money that I can pay my speakers really fairly, I can pay myself, I can have a little bit extra to be able to invest in whatever my next project is. So not everything is going to be profitable from a money perspective. But we find profits come in lots of different forms. That said, there's kind of two different approaches to online events, there's either the pay to play, which is someone has to buy a ticket ahead of time, that's kind of your traditional conferences, you know, you do you want to go to South by Southwest or something like that, you're going to pay for a pass, and then you go to the event. And hopefully, the event is good because you've already spent the money, more trust you have with your audience, the more of a legacy you have, the easier it is for people to take that bet. So pay to play. And then there's the free to attend, where there's an opportunity to then get like extended access or something like that. We really specialize in the free to attend event. And that was a really intentional direction for me in the beginning, that I found worked really well because I do have a lot of people in my community and my audience and my social media following who are disabled who are black or indigenous or people of color who are queer, trans non binary people who traditionally have fewer opportunities for access because of systemic oppression and things like that. So I didn't want to put a pay barrier up when I knew that there were so many people in my community who were struggling to just pay rent or who didn't have jobs, I wanted them to have the opportunity to get all this richness and to really want to be a part of future experiences that I had. And for people who did want to pay that there was a way to do that. We've seen really successful pay to play events. But again, pay to play in our experience requires a lot of trust. So it's going to work really well for you, if you've got a really strong engaged following your list is really healthy. And people love saying yes to you, maybe you've got some names attached, that have some really big trust factors, you know, it's gonna be a lot easier for someone to say I have no idea what's behind this paywall, but I'll pay the 100 100 or 300, or $500. And hope for the best when there's a really high level of trust. Or if it's a topic where the information is quite hard to come by, it's like an emerging field, something like that. If you're newer, if you're growing, it's your first time doing something like this. And so you don't have a lot of connections, free to attend this probably going to be a lot easier. And then the question becomes, how much is it going to cost me as far as like time and energy to create this, what's my timeline, we always pay our speakers always, especially because we have such a commitment to ensuring that we invite people from a wide range of communities, identities and perspectives. It just makes the conversation so much richer when it's not like all white thin sis women, which is kind of what it was before. That's all you'd see speaking at the summits. And so paying our speakers is really important. So what for me is a sustainable amount of money I can offer it doesn't have to be a lot. But the offer is what matters, I respect you enough to say I don't have much, but this is what I can afford. If I'm going to do that 10 Or 20 Or 30 times depending on how many speakers you get. And then really thinking about what would be the thing that my community, my audience is so hungry for, for a lot of people at this point in time connection. So many of us are lonely, feeling like we don't have as many friends as we wish we did. The pandemic created so much separation. And so a lot of what people are craving are safe places to be able to be seen and heard, if you include things like that in your packages, so not just the replays, but also an opportunity to do some calls afterwards, where people can chit chat and ask questions. Or maybe you've got a mighty networks. And so they get access to have ongoing connections or workshops afterwards, or those kinds of things, I find that it's a much easier Yes, for the people who really love what you're doing. We've seen people who put events on, and they're able to pay their speakers and maybe pay themselves a tiny little bit. But it wasn't about the money in the first place. And we've had others who by their third year, we're bringing in close to a million dollars on their event. Now, of course, their expenses are a couple $100,000. But the profit was handsome. That's super dependent on your audience, what they're needing what you can offer, the industry you're in, is that a saturated market or an emerging market, all those kinds of things. But there's definitely some, some ways to play with the numbers so that you can kind of get an idea of like, here's the ballpark, I'm going to probably land inside of if I put my event on, and what I'll be able to pay my speakers so that it feels good.
Nikki Groom 29:02
If someone is listening to this and thinking, gosh, that sounds like really complicated to put together my own song. Is there anything that you would recommend or just a lot of things to think about? Is there anything that you would recommend to them in terms of getting started maybe a minimum viable product? Or maybe I mean, we've talked specifically about summits? Does it even need to be a summit? Do you give any advice around that when someone's just like, gosh, I think that that could be really good for me, but I just don't know if I'm ready for that yet.
Dawn 29:34
Absolutely, though, the first thing I'll say is no matter what you're creating, no matter what you're creating a podcast, workshop and online course a summit. There's going to be some of your own personal stuff that comes up the imposter syndrome that Who the heck do I think I am? Is anybody gonna show up for this? Is anybody gonna buy this? Oh my god, it's so much to do. Do what did I signed myself up for. So that's just a part of what it means to I think be an entrepreneur, which is we do scary things. That's why being an entrepreneur isn't always for everybody, we have to take some risks, we have to fail sometimes to really learn, ah, that's the direction that I actually want to go in. But when it comes to some, it's going back to the flexibility of it, you can make it as big or as small as you want. And it doesn't have to be a thing that's like, impressive by anybody else's standards. You know, if you want to have a one day summit that has like two or three talks, and a really fun getting to know you networking, great, do that doesn't have to be more than that. It can be fun, it can be small, you can have 20 people, 50 people, 100 people show up. And something magical is going to happen if you really just care. Or maybe you want to go all in, that's what I did. Had I known at the time, when I was signing myself up for I wouldn't have done it. But hey, sometimes ignorance is bliss. So when I finally was like, I'm going to do my first summit, I'm doing 10 days and 30 speakers, that was a lot of work. It was a lot of work. But it was also amazing. It was amazing that I got to connect with 30 people that were doing really rad things on the world, form personal relationships that I've continued to maintain with many of them since then. And I had a couple of 1000 people show up, you know, when I was just starting out, I have like maybe 100 200 people on my list. And I had a couple of 1000 people show up for that. And it was people who really liked the questions, I was asking who were really excited about the ways that I was inviting others into the conversation. So it felt amazing. On the other side, even though there were some bumps, there were some things, you know that I overlooked some of the ways my own proof really showed up. And people were like, you might want to think about this. Okay, accept it, you know, love it. And the next time I got to do better and differently. And you know, now I've had like, I don't know, eight under my belt and learn something every time. But for people who are just thinking about getting started. And remember, you get to do it on your own timeline, we recommend, if you're doing more than like, one or two days, you're gonna want one or two days, that's gonna have like three to six people here, you can probably do that in a couple of months. But if you're doing anything bigger, you know, most of the people we work with are in the like five to eight day range 15 to 25 Speaker range, we recommend a good nine months for that. But we, for repeat clients, we always start a year out. And that's just so we aren't panicked pushing our speakers to book book book in the super tiny two week window. So that we can adjust as we learn new information, we can troubleshoot with technology, and have other things going on in our lives. You know, our whole life isn't just this one thing. We've got other note talks we're giving and blogs we're writing and that kind of stuff. So again, it just depends on what you feel you have the capacity for I did my very first summit virtually alone. No, the VA, just me editing my videos roughly in iMovie, putting things up on YouTube, he was doing a little password protected page on WordPress. Other than paying my speakers, it cost very little. And it was out rough. But people didn't care. Because the content was just so good. The conversations were so deep and so fun, that people didn't care, it was a little bit rough around the edges and held together with duct tape. And most people won't, you know, they're really forgiving when they see you're just trying your best and showing up as fully as you can. So it doesn't have to be fancy, it doesn't have to be expensive. It doesn't have to be a big effort, unless that's what you want and what you can afford. So if you're thinking, maybe I want to do like an online event of some kind, I say sit down and just really think like, what would make this feel good for me? Who are the kinds of people I would love to be in conversation with? What kind of folks would show up up and just be such a great fit for the things of dreaming down the road? And then what helps everyone to feel really cared for and then see what feels possible. You know, there's going to be some things you just can't afford that first time around or you're just not sure you want to invest in because you don't know if it's going to work. That's okay. You can let people know that like hey, this is my first time. If this goes really well next time I'd like to offer XYZ it's on my way radar, you know, that kind of stuff, you can be really human. And just let yourself be seen as in process. And what we've found is that that transparency, that willingness to take the risk to try really, really makes people want to be a part of it.
Nikki Groom 35:17
So good, such great advice. Thank you so much, Dawn. If people are curious about what you're up to in the world, what is the best way for them to connect with you?
Dawn 35:26
Oh, great question. We aren't taking on any new summits at this point. But you can reach out if you just want to get some like strategic consulting or guidance. I am doing like one on one strategic guidance. But we're not actually helping to produce summits at this point. Because between grad school and launching our new business, things are a little bit busy. I say the best way to reach out to me right now is probably to follow me on Instagram, which is Dawn underscore, Sarah. And that's s like Sam, E R RA for Sarah. And then within the next like, month or two, I'm going to be launching our new website, which is tend and cultivate.com. Like tending a garden, so tend and cultivate.com. And that's where I'm going to be doing coaching and therapy and all kinds of rad stuff from a radical mental health perspective. So people want to just jot that down and check it out later. And if you're interested in getting a one on one consult around an idea you have or how to do the process better. Radical summits.com is our website and there's a contact form. And you can just check some things out. We've got a couple resources up there, and I'd love to hear from you.
Nikki Groom 36:40
Don, thank you so much. This has been wonderful. I'm so happy I got to reconnect with you. And yeah, thank you for all the fantastic advice. Oh,
Dawn 36:48
thanks so much for having me. I hope people dream amazing events into their lives and I can't wait to hear how it goes.