How to Own Your Message and Show Up With Integrity
“The only way the world is going to find out about your medicine is by you using your voice. I talk about it in terms of owning your personal power. It's a limitless resource.”
I have a special episode for you this week! Brooke Monaghan is the host of the podcast Transcend Your Dichotomy. She recently invited me to be a guest on her show to talk about owning your message and making a bigger impact in your work and in the world. Brooke was gracious enough to allow me to share our conversation on this week’s episode of the Movement Makers podcast. During our conversation, you’ll hear us discuss some of the challenges folks experience around visibility and how it’s important that we encourage them to step into their full potential without the fear of making mistakes.
Talk Topics:
The work I do today and who it’s in service of
What I mean by leading with empathy and what that looks like in practice
Whether you have to talk about pain points in your copywriting
The mindset you need to show up authentically online and promote your business
Why the world needs your voice, your message, and your medicine
Show transcript:
Brooke
You're listening to transcend your dichotomy, the podcast where we break the rules that say we have to leave ourselves behind in pursuit of success. I'm Bert Monahan and I created the show for purpose driven business owners. Together we'll talk about how to go for your goals have an impact, all while honoring yourself, your desires and your values there comes a time in your life where enough people have told you, Hey, do you know this person you must know this person that you finally stop and go you know what I think I need to know that person and that was the case with me and Nikki Gru. People kept telling me you must know Nikki groom. She's like all about what you're about. How do you not know Nikki groom? So I looked up Nicki groom I needed to know Nikki groom and now I've been on Nicki grooms podcast. Nikki grooms come on my podcast and small world we found out that she lives in the town that I used to live and work in. It's so weird. Anyways, I hope for your sake that you were not drinking every time that I said Nikki groom, but you're gonna love today's episode. All joking aside, hell was a force of nature. Nikki groom is on a mission to help rising leaders recognize their worthiness, own their power and amplify their impact without checking their integrity out the door. Yes, please. She's the author of a power of your own how to ignite your potential, uncover your purpose and blaze your own trail in life and business, a business brand and in marketing strategist and the creator of movement makers mastermind, which is a small business growth accelerator, Nikki hosts the movement makers podcast, maybe you pop over there and listen to my episode on the show to see if you're into it. She's the founder of the 100 stories worth telling project and acts as an advisor for Social Entrepreneurs and enterprises. She has been involved in dozens of projects and partnerships that focus on empowering women and business, Nikki and I had a whole journey of a conversation about how she got into this work. She is like such a veteran of the online business world. She has been doing this for a long time. But also the types of people that she works with and how she helps people find their message and their voice to have an impact and tell their story. And we also get into some things about how I think sometimes the message around ethical business can actually make people really scared to share their message. People who have a lot of integrity and are afraid of doing something wrong, it kind of can can force people to not speak up. And so we touched on that as well. Nikki was willing to go there with me and so I was so glad that she was alright, I hope that you love this episode. I really think that you will. And if you want to check out more from Nikki, definitely find the movement makers podcast wherever you're listening to this podcast. Some of my favorite people have been on that show. So I know there's some great conversations on there. And you can also go to Nikki groom.com/book and get a free chapter of the book and see if that is something you want to dive into next. Hi, Nikki, I am so excited to be chatting with you today. It's long overdue.
Nikki Groom
Hey, Brooke, I know I so agree. We were joking about the tech meltdown we had last time we tried to chat or I had like I should probably just own that it was on my end of things but yes, I'm very grateful to be chatting finally.
Brooke
Hey, when it comes to tech, it's there's there's really not that much that you can do. It's out of your hand is just it's a lesson in surrender.
Nikki Groom
That's it. Oh, I like. Yeah. Lesson.
Brooke
Well, yeah, I'm so excited to have you. I kind of briefly introduced you at the top of the episode. But would you like to tell people a little bit more about what you do and how you started doing what you do. And people love the good, like entrepreneurial journey story on this show. So really, as much or as little as you want to share where you're for it? Yeah, I
Nikki Groom
guess the way that I am describing the work that I do is that I am passionate about amplifying the voices of women and underrepresented folks who are leading change. So I have a podcast myself called movement makers. And those tend to be the types of folks that I'm working with people who are not only necessarily in business for themselves, but they're actually trying to do something with that business create some kind of difference in that industry, using that influence for good. So it really excites me and lights me up. I've been working for myself for coming up for 10 years, which feels like a gazillion years. And I always talk about my business as being this real evolution. As I evolved as I began to learn what work I wanted to be doing, the kinds of people that I love to work with, that has all evolved over time. But for the first five years of my business, it's funny, I feel like I kind of get this five year itch. I was primarily copywriting, and so copywriting for online business owners, and really helping them to get to the heart of their message and help them communicate in a way that really made other people feel seen and heard and understood. And then from there, I moved more into strategy. So really, I'm a business brand and marketing strategist. But it goes so much deeper than that. And I've had the opportunity to work with so many incredible folks who are doing really great work in the world. A lot of pretty sought after keynote speakers, bestselling authors, and people like that. But yeah, I'm happy to sort of dig into my story, however you see fit. I'm sure there's some questions that 10 years is a lot of time to cover. So I don't want to drone on but
Brooke
you know, first of all, droning on is always like, where the good stuff is now. But um, but so immediately, you say that I'm like, Oh, my gosh, 10 years in the online business world is like 100 years anywhere else, you know what I mean? Because you were like, a really like, you're just like, a real veteran, I guess, as they say. And I'm curious to know, like, so when you started working for yourself? Was it in an online business? Yes.
Nikki Groom
And that's why I love that things have changed as they have in the last Gosh, 20 years, when I first saw social media becoming a thing and then began following certain people as a result of the blog posts they were writing, or the ebooks that they were putting out into the world. I was like, wow, this is so cool. I think I could do this, too. Yeah. And so I built my business through social media in the beginning. Yeah.
Brooke
Yeah, it's like, things are just so different than I don't even know. Because to be honest, like, I stumbled upon this, like three years ago, and truly, like, even then I just had no idea like, what was even happening in the online business, like business development world, I kind of like, started my consulting business. And then I started getting more clients online. And then slowly, I was like, Wait, like, what's, what's a coach? Hmm? Like, what's this business coaching thing? Like, what are these? Oh, my gosh, these people are doing and I just thought it was so cool that people have like, kind of carved out these little really niche things for themselves. And you were doing at a time when it was even less known. Like, it's, it's so funny. I'm saying this now, because I feel like it's so obvious, everybody, but I still talk to people who have no idea what I do. Like it's Yeah. So
Nikki Groom
it is like, I feel like the online space kind of becomes like, it's a bit of a bubble to some extent. So yeah, I remember that I would kind of see certain people as these like celebrities, online celebrities, and then I'd speak to my friends about them, and they had zero clue who they were. And it was so amazing how we put so much stock in people like that, which I know is something that you talk about. And you actually talked about on my podcasts. I love that conversation. But yeah, it's it's a funny little world. And you had mentioned somebody's name earlier, and I always jot down the names because it's like you think you know, everybody, but there's always more people to discover, which is a great reminder and competition as well because I think sometimes it can feel overwhelming to see so many people doing something similar to you like how can I possibly differentiate myself but I there's enough business for all of us, so
Brooke
oh my gosh, totally. Yeah, absolutely. Um, Especially like when you see that a lot of the people who are really, they've kind of like risen to I hate to even say like risen to the top of like air quoting like the top, you know, people who are really well known. I think at this point people are getting really sick of like this very kind of, I don't know, like almost like tired approach to things. But those people are still getting so many, like new followers and new people into their programs and stuff. And so when I think about that, I'm like, Yeah, of course, there's room for all of us, because I see people who are not well known who are doing things in like a really cool, interesting way. And I'm like, wow, you could help so many of those people, and they just don't even have any idea exist. You know, like, yeah, a friend, a friend
Nikki Groom
of mine called it the meathead rise to the top. I would amused me, I think that, yeah, there are a lot of people out there, it almost seems like they're not putting in very much effort and just sort of teaching like the bare bones basics. So I do think there's a lot of room for people who have really deepened into their work, who have lots of experiences, different perspectives to help it really come into their own. And we perhaps won't do it in the same way as those people got where they are. Yeah, but I think there's still opportunity for influence and impact.
Brooke
Absolutely. And actually, I'm really like, optimistic about where things are going. Because I feel like and maybe this is just something that I'm feeling. I don't know if I don't know if you're noticing this, but I feel like people what people respond to is changing a lot in terms of like marketing. I think that people are like, I think that people can smell like bullshit from like three miles away. Like, I think that people have gotten so much more like keyed into that. I also think that people have gotten a bit more like, contemplative, maybe about like, what they I don't know, there was once a time where I think it was a lot easier to sell the get rich, quick idea. And I think that that has gotten so much harder. That now it's like you're seeing this thing where we're all having to adapt to like being more real and telling the truth more and realizing like, that's really what's going to make the difference and this vulnerability thing. And a lot of people just are not built for that, you know, and I'm really optimistic, because I think that it's really going to, to help a lot of people who we, we wish were better known be. I don't know, like have an advantage.
Nikki Groom
Yeah, I love that you see optimistically and I'm going to try and soak in some of that, that hope because I think the best example of that is when you read the comments, so either the comments on someone's paid ads, or the comments on someone's tic toc video and you see people rep people to Sure. Like, if you make any kind of empty promises, or Yeah, like, I did this and this space of time, and you can do it too, like you all right, people are over that. And I think that there are lots of challenges with the ways in which social media and the online space are changing. And it can sometimes feel hard to know how to keep up with that. But I like that you frame it in that hopeful way, because you are right, like people are just over the empty stuff. And yeah, I think it gives us more room to show up as our really authentic selves and actually teach stuff. That that that helps people.
Brooke
Yeah, yeah, I think you're just catching me on a good day, Nikki. Anyone who listens know knows that I am like, I get on here. And I'm just like, Fuck Instagram. Like I go into the depths of like the the pessimism all the time. I'm very cynical. today. I'm feeling optimistic about it. So I don't know, talk to me in a few days. It's ready to hang on to this. Yeah, it's
Nikki Groom
funny, because I'm, like, usually a total optimist. And then I'm like, Okay, I'm like, this is a little bit of a bitch fest over here that I'm having. But But no, I yeah, there's there's a lot of people who are experiencing extraordinary success. We don't need to talk about whether or not they deserve it. I just think that sometimes it can be very daunting and intimidating for people who are trying to get there too. And I think what we're both saying is that there's room you know, there's there's opportunity there. Yeah, maybe opportunity that wasn't there before.
Brooke
Yeah. And let's say that you figured out how to nail doing exactly what they're doing. And you could also experience that quote, unquote, success. You wouldn't like it because that's not actually what like for people who are having real conversations, people that you and I work with, who actually care about making an impact and care about having something that has a real Purpose of care about really changing things you I promise would get there and be like, I don't want to do this, and you just end up doing something else anyway. So I'm just like, let's just not even chase that. And I personally, oh my gosh, everyone who listens and has coaching calls with me knows that this fucking Roomba. I'm grateful for the Roomba for vacuuming for me. And also it gets stuck on things. And then it does that. And I was doing Roomba. That was my Roomba telling me that it ate a cord. You know,
Nikki Groom
We have a maybe we don't have a Roomba because ours doesn't speak to us. I think we have like a knockoff Roomba.
Brooke
yeah, I think that, that, you know, I've, I've learned for myself and I, I'm sure that you can speak to this too, because you've been doing this a lot longer than I have. It's like, you can figure out how to do things that way too, and build a marketing machine if you want to. And I promise you, as those clients start to land in front of you, and you start to realize they're not actually the people that want to help them with, or that's not actually the thing that you want to help them with, you're not even gonna like it. So you may as well have the business where you're like doing something with a little bit more depth, know that you're not going to be for everybody, people are going to come and go, but the people who stick with it, like who stick with you are going to be like it is going to be so much more rewarding. And I don't know, I just feeling optimistic about it tonight. Okay, so yeah,
Nikki Groom
I think the best clients in my experience have never been the ones who read an email, you know, or saw a paid ad, and acted like the first time they saw me, like they've never, they've never been the clients that really stood the test of time. Whereas exactly like you say, the people who who are in my orbit who stay in my orbit, who love what I'm putting down who I get to know who I take the time to get to know, like those relationships means so much more than like a quick connection, that lapping on one platform or another. Yeah. Yeah. With you With you.
Brooke
So now your work has evolved. And now you are working with people who are creating change, but really like using their voice? Yeah, right. Yeah. So tell us more about that. Like, there's like speaking as a part of that. But I imagine it goes deeper than just it being about speaking.
Nikki Groom
Yeah, it's, I mean, in my mind, it's strategic communications. But people keep telling me that that means nothing to them. So I'm trying to break it down. But yeah, absolutely. I've been working with a lot of speakers. So if you have a business, that you want to grow, if you have a brand that you want to build, and if you just want to take your insights and ideas and lived experiences, and turn them into a really powerful message that really influences and impacts other people, then that's when I want to help you do. Sometimes that might look like crafting a keynote talk for you. Sometimes that might look like building out a website for you writing your website copy or coaching you through writing it yourself. But yes, that's, that's really the work. And then, you know, as I had mentioned at the beginning, I call it sort of business brand and marketing strategy. Because my work falls into all of those buckets, I think you can't have one without the other. But it does go so much deeper than that. So I do also help people with their marketing strategy. But it's not just a case of where should I show up? And how often but how can I show up in a way that's authentic to me, that does resonate with other people, that really helps me become known for my area of expertise, and leaves people in no doubt that they want to work with me. So it's, it's more about really, truly leading with empathy, understanding your audience, and making sure that you're owning everything that makes you amazing and great. So and the communication piece is always that connecting piece like how do we say this? How do we write this. That's kind of the area that I'm always playing in. And so often, you know, especially whether we've been doing our work for three years, or 10 years, it can be hard to really distill down everything that we know, everything that we think into, you know, a couple sentences. And so it can be really helpful to partner with somebody else in that process. So they can say, well, here are the themes that I keep hearing coming up for you. And it seems like your work is at the intersection of this and this and this and I think that this really is your message and that's at the core of everything that you do and all of your work. My work is fun, and it's meaningful as well because it's really helping people to to do the kind of work that lights them up.
Brooke
Yeah. So when people first come and I want to like Bill Mark, I'm gonna write it down for myself too. But I want to bookmark you said, leading from empathy and really understanding your audience, I really want to come back to that, because that's not something that I hear people talk about a lot. And I know exactly what you mean. And we need to have the conversation. But before we have that conversation, when people first come to you like, what's, what do you find people are usually stuck with, because I know that a lot of people listening are wanting to do exactly what you just said, right? Like, they're wanting to get their ideas out there. They're wanting to like package these ideas and kind of like gift them to their community and maybe get on stages or start a podcast or something like that. And I think that for them, for a lot of the people that I talked to, it's like the idea of doing that is so daunting. Like, where do I start? And so I'm wondering, with most of the people that you work with, like, where are they? And where, how do you start with them? What's that kind of like first step that you kind of walk people through?
Nikki Groom
I help my clients with this as well. But I always look at my clients as kind of on this journey. So there are some clients who maybe are at the beginning of their journey. And maybe they haven't even really thought about speaking as a way to communicate with others and really establish their credibility. Maybe they're just trying to think about how they can talk about what they do, be it an elevator pitch, be at their website, copy, be it social media, captions, be it blog posts, be it PR articles in a way that sets them apart, and that helps people immediately understand what they do. So that's probably something that they're trying to grapple with, like how, like, there are so many people who are business coaches, or there are so many people who are doing the same work as me, and how do how do I sound different? I think I'm different. But how do I sum that up? And so people will always say to me, like, I don't know how to talk about what I do. And we were just joking before this conversation that I just finished writing my homepage, and I love doing this stuff for other people. But I spent like a gazillion days, it felt like writing my homepage. So I get it like it can be tough we get in our own heads, we have all these ideas swirling around. So how do we get that out of our heads and onto paper. So that's something that I help people with at the very earliest stages. And then a little bit further along, or maybe even a lot further along. I oftentimes work with professional speakers who have business to business consulting companies or their executive coaches. And they're really building multiple six, if not seven figure businesses. And so they're looking to make sure that, you know, fortune 500 companies notice them, see them as the real deal. They're looking to get hired for speaking events where they might get paid 10,000 20,000, sometimes even up to 40, or $50,000, for a keynote, they oftentimes will want to really build I call it their body of work in terms of, you know, maybe they'll want a podcast, or maybe we'll figure out some really amazing pillar articles that they can write that really help them become known for the right reasons. But they're looking for all of the different touch points that they can align, so that they really raise their profile in the best possible way and get in front of the right types of people. But yes, does that Yeah,
Brooke
yeah, totally. And like, tell me if I'm off on this, because I always feel like so this idea of having like a body of work, right? This is something that just recently, like, probably over this past year, I started to feel tangible to me for the first time. I'm like, Oh, I've actually I keep feeling like I'm, like changing my mind or wasn't quite sure what it was doing whatever. And now I'm getting to a point where like, oh, it was all about the same thing, actually. And it all made sense. And there was a storyline. And now I'm getting to a point where I feel like I can I there's like this depth to what I do, or I can point people toward Oh, well, that's this concept. And that's right. And it feels so nice now, but I also remember being at the beginning and being like, how am I supposed to do that. But like, again, it feels very daunting. And for me, like I always tell people who are at the very beginning, like it just you just have to start like you just have to you just have to start doing something and allow yourself to possibly get it wrong. Allow yourself to find out that actually it's Nope, it's not that it's this and like, over time, you're gonna look back and be like, Whoa, look at all the stuff that I did. And then you can kind of pull it together. But you can't really do that. If you don't just you can't and I guess what I'm saying is you can't sit down at the very beginning and invent all of that you need to have like gone through the process. I think of trying to put it out there and working through it. And eventually you have all of these pieces that then you can kind of make sense of does
Nikki Groom
that is that right? Yeah, I like it. We're both asking each other if we're making sense. We should just assume that we are no i think no one likes to be a beginner, right and through building a body of work is by its very nature, an evolutionary process. And so when we think about bodies of work, usually we go to what artists create. And when you think about when an artist is just getting started, and you can think of about some of the Great's out there, be it Van Gogh, or whoever else, that art looked very different in the early days than it did in the end. And so I think that when it comes to creating our own body of work, positioning ourselves in a way that communicates what is meaningful to us, and maybe even ways that we can help others, I think it's totally okay to, you know, look at old blog posts and cringe or think, Gosh, that wasn't quite it. There's a quote from good old Oprah that I always come back to, which is that there are no wrong paths. And she was talking about life. But I think it also applies to anything that we create like this. Like I love how you talked about the through line that you noticed in your work, I was talking about some of the work that I'm moving into, with Jada Sona on her podcast the other day. And she said, yeah, she said, You know, I see that through line for you. It's been so many years, and she's seen me doing similar work for a long time or talking about similar things. But it's just about continuing to tune into what's important to you, and then communicating that to the outside world. And that can, that can be a painting, right? But it can also be like a really amazing medium article that you just pour your heart and soul into, it can be a podcast like this. I mean, you're building your body of work with this podcast, in terms of how intentional you are about choosing your guests and the conversations that you're having and the way that you're having them. You're telling people so much about who you are, what you want to be known for, the values that you have, and things like that. So, yeah, I think whenever we're being more visible, and we're showing up and we're creating in public, it's really an opportunity to create that body of work. That does really help us stand out.
Brooke
Yeah, yeah. And like, if you don't look back at the stuff that you did before and think, great, or that wasn't quite right, it probably just means that like you didn't learn you weren't growing,
Nikki Groom
like deleted a lot of old blog posts. I'm not gonna lie, CFO, and when anything, like when I talking about the beginner thing as well, even when I listened back to early episodes of my podcast, like my style has changed so much my interview style, but, but I kind of like having it there as this reminder, even with my Instagram account, I mean, if you scrolled and scrolled and scrolled, we're gonna go back aways to before I even had a business and, and I've never archived that old stuff, that old stuff. I just kind of let it sit there. And, you know, I think that makes us interesting. As human beings. We're all on journeys, no, none of us have reached this point of perfection. We're all still trying to figure it out. I'll say that again. We're all just trying to figure things out. Yeah. So yeah, we shouldn't.
Brooke
I have left all of my the beginning, the beginning of this podcast that used to have a different name. And it was very different. It was like, it was so different. And I've left it all up. And I tell people all the time, like, if you want to hear what like go that, why don't you go back and listen to the first like, some of those first episodes, because you're gonna see, like, I was not like this, this developed, you know, but this is also why sometimes I get really angry. Sometimes I get, like, really enraged, and I have to, like, put my phone down or like, get myself off of social media, because I will see somebody say something like, If you don't have this much experience under your belt, or if you don't have this and like, I don't want to hear you talking about X, Y, or Z, or like, there's all these people saying that they're experts on this, but like, they haven't actually done and on the one hand, I'm like, Okay, if you're being deceitful in your marketing, absolutely. I have an issue with that. Don't position yourself as somebody who can do something that you can't, of course, and also, where are people supposed to start? Can we give each other a break, because every single person has to start somewhere. And I remember when I was first starting, like, I really, it took me every single time that I put anything out there, I needed to go through this whole thing in my head about how I deserved to be heard, and I could still put it out there even if I wasn't as far along as somebody else. So I hate when I hear people like do that. Because I'm like, well, like you got to start somewhere, you know?
Nikki Groom
Yeah, totally. I'm so happy that you said that because I think that those kinds of posts I mean, it takes enough courage as it is to do the thing launch the thing start the thing show up be visible, be seen be heard. It's really hard for a lot of us. And so, yeah, those kinds of posts don't help anybody and actually they shut people down and they stifle them and make them feel like their voice doesn't matter or can't create change or can't have an impact. And so, yeah, we gotta unfollow folks who make us feel any kind of way about doing that. It's hard enough as it is,
Brooke
it really is. And also, if that's the way that you feel, I would encourage you to ask yourself if you are stifling your own voice, and maybe that's why you feel like other people should be doing it to themselves. I don't know, I don't know you. But I think there's a lot of that, like, Oh, you think that you can do whatever? Well, I'm not doing that because I am more ethical. It's like, that's it. I care. I do care about ethical business. Everyone who listens to this knows, like, I've always I've got all kinds of stuff to say about the bro marketers and deceiving marketing and those kinds of tactics. But also, I think that there's a way that we can use that to like, tell people not to be bold. Yeah. And that is going to holds people who are maybe in the who do not feel the level of confidence that somebody who had a different lived experience is going to feel people who don't have that level of confidence, because of what they went through are going to be the ones who are going to hear that and be like, Okay, well, I guess that I just shouldn't say anything.
So okay, let's talk about this idea of leading with empathy and understanding your audience. Yeah. I want to know more about what you mean by that. And I feel like, yeah, it's gonna go where it goes.
Nikki Groom
Yeah. And in fact, I've said for a long time leading with empathy, you might argue that it should be leading with compassion, because that's more action oriented. Or even I had a client of mine who said, talked about leading in solidarity with people, which I love even more, because that means you're not just kind of being empathetic from a distance, you are actually standing shoulder to shoulder with people, and really not only taking the time to understand them, and what matters to them. But you are in their corner, you're fighting for them with them. Yeah, they're, they're, what's important to them is important to you, that kind of thing. So I really love that reframe. Yeah, but essentially is about, and I was, I probably needed a better metaphor or analogy, but I was talking about it in terms of a scale. So when we're thinking about serving others, they're on one side of the scale, there's other people, these people that you most want to serve, support, help. And then you're on the other side. And we always want to make sure that both sides are balanced. So it can be very easy for them to tip one way or the other. So as I say, this, like we can't forget about you in this equation, like everything that you bring to the table is still super important. But it's also really important that you actually understand your your folks. And sometimes, especially if you're newer in business, you just got to start working with people, you just got to get that experience. You've got to be that beginner. You know, I always think that's when I first started my business, and I was terrified about getting on sales calls. And I was I was so shy, like just yeah, just not just not who I am today, because now I love a good sales call. But it's really about asking people, you know, what, what is it that you're struggling with? I think that most of the time we can throw out those client avatars that that we think that we have to have, because the only really helpful pieces are, you know, when you think about the people you most want to serve, what are they struggling with? How are they feeling? And how can you speak to that in a way that makes them feel seen and heard and understood. So that's really what it's about. And we can't forget that that always needs to be a part of the the equation, we've always got to be thinking about how we can bridge the gap. And much of the time, we can use, we can leverage our own experiences, our own stories in service of them and say, Look, you know, I was there. And here's what I discovered is possible. It's not about having all the answers, but just sharing the ideas, the insights that you have as a result of your journey, and finding ways to be of service from that place and finding ways to connect from that place. It's kind of that me two factor, right? So, you know, hey, I've been there too. Or, you know, I've witnessed this firsthand, and people struggling with this, so that people just feel less alone. And I really believe that that's our greatest gift that we can give to the world or give to anyone is to let them know that they're not alone. So that's really what it's all about.
Brooke
Yeah, I love that I and it kind of brings up something that I've been thinking about I've not really thought this through that much. This is probably the first time that I'm gonna say it publicly. And I'm really curious to hear what your thoughts are on it. So I'm sure that your, you've seen this as well over the past, like, couple of years, I feel like there's been this rise in this idea of like, playing on people's trauma in marketing, in copy, and like pain points. So like, you shouldn't use pain points, because you're gonna, like, play it, you're gonna, like, make people feel bad, you're gonna play on people's trauma. And I get it, of course, and I totally have seen it happen in a way that is really shitty. And I also have seen this thing happen, where now people think that like, they shouldn't talk about the way that people are feeling because that is playing on people's trauma. And from where I am sitting, I'm like, I think that it might have been playing on your trauma to tell you that you're not good if you do that. And now you're like, feeling like you can't say anything. So that's the first piece is I'm like, I don't know, like I don't I just I don't know. But the other piece is like, I don't think that not talking about it is helping, like not talking about the way that people feel isn't helped. So there's definitely a line. And I'm curious to know, if you have thoughts on the line, if you feel like things have swung too far in one direction? Like, I don't know, what are your thoughts? Yeah,
Nikki Groom
I think there are a few things to think about. And I'm so glad that you brought this up, because the first thing is, what is the intention? You know, what is our intention? What place? Are we coming from? How aware? Are we of our audience? Are they the same as us? Have they gone through the same things, we've got to assume that there's a lot of unknowns there. So we've really got to be very intentional and very careful with our words, we don't want to cause harm without words. So we have to come from that place. And now the fact the reality is, sometimes you might mess up, you might make a mistake, someone might say, oh, you know, I really, that really kind of rubbed me the wrong way. So just having the right intention doesn't mean that you won't screw up. But it does mean that it's much less likely. And then I also think, you know, the beautiful thing about life is that two things can always be true at the same time. And so you know, that's true, when you think about the fact that things can be good and bad. At the same time, you can have a day that's full of some highlights, and some not so great spots. And the same thing. Yeah, when you're thinking about copy that you're writing, there's a way to really, you could really press on people's pain points. Or you could think about the fact that they're struggling with that. And the fact that I know they're feeling that way, means that they need a message from me, that tells them that there's hope. So that's, that's always that next connecting piece is you've got to understand where they're coming from, in order to give them hope that things can be different from them. And you're going to do your utmost to get them there. On the other side of that is this incredible opportunity to really bring your strengths into play and your experiences into play and your expertise into play in service of them. So yeah, that's something to think about. And so a beautiful way to flip that is to, you know, ask people to visualize or imagine a different future. You don't necessarily need to explicitly call out exactly how they're feeling. Do you feel overwhelmed, frustrated, and you might, you can, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. But again, it's very much about being intentional with your words, thinking about the kind of impact that you're gonna have. And being extremely mindful of that.
Brooke
Yeah. What I really love about what you're saying is like, because I think about as I've been thinking about this more and more, I've been thinking about how you can know a lot about what people are going through and you can use that to try to get something out of them. And you can also know a lot about what people are going or what people are going through and then like like you're saying speak to that in a really empathetic way and be really mindful of how they feel when you're talking to them and re identifying with them and letting them know like that there is hope. And the line I think can sometimes be very, sometimes can be a very fine line. And I love what that what you're saying is you're not giving like a here's what to do and what not to do. Here's the checklist on how to do the copy the right way because it's really not it's really not out that it's more about like I always tell people, and this is something that thank God for my coach Leno asked, because I've I know this to be true. And I'm sure one of the reasons I talk about it is because it's something that I struggle with, it's so easy to fall back into what's the right thing to do next. And it's like the right thing, the right next step, the black and white, right, next thing, it doesn't exist, like you have to focus on like, where you're, what's going on with you. And like, if you're in the right headspace, and like, what your intention is, as you move into this, and are you thinking critically as you move forward, and like us that and then like, you might fuck it up. And if you do, you're gonna learn something from it. And it's probably not going to be fun to get the feedback, but like you have to write. And so I love that what you're saying is like, you know, it's not about like, do this and don't do that, it's more about like, hey, you know, make sure that you're not trying to like, make sure that your intentions are in the right place. Make sure that you're being really thoughtful about where people are coming from, and then also know that like, you still might not get it right. And you got to kind of be willing to let that happen.
Nikki Groom
Yeah. And, you know, I think as well, something that's really important. And I touched on this earlier when I was talking about that scale, but is to remember, and I'm assuming that all of your listeners are good folks, you know, we don't have anyone listening here who wants to manipulate people or get them to do something that they don't want, I'm assuming I'm
Brooke
trying to tell people all the time, I'm like, listen, I You don't need me to tell you to not be a new job. That's why we're,
Nikki Groom
I'm guessing we're all adults. Here. We're all you know, striving, you know, we have that growth mindset we're all striving to do better be better. So often, and especially with women, or especially with under recognized or underestimated, folks, you see people worrying so much about this and worrying so much about doing it in the wrong way, or triggering people or, you know, chastise that they don't say anything at all. And so in my mind, the most important thing to remember my friend Charlie Gilkey talks about each of us, having medicine to offer the world. And so really, truly believing that you actually do have medicine to offer the world. And that the only way the world is going to find out about your medicine is by you using your voice either through the written word or the spoken word. And when you do that, trusting yourself trusting that you will show up authentically, because you actually care about people and you actually care about making a difference and helping them in some way. And so that's really what I mean, when I talk about leading with empathy, or leading in solidarity with people, it's not only having those folks in mind and caring about them, but it's believing that you have something that can help them. I talk about it in terms of owning your power, owning your personal power, you know, it's this limitless resource. And we can draw on that in service of others. And so it's, it's important that we don't lose sight of that fact, as well. Because, again, people find it hard enough to speak up to be visible to show up. And, like, it's gonna be uncomfortable at times, you're gonna feel like a beginner. It's not going to be perfect, it probably will never be perfect. We have to put perfection to one side, but just trust that you're going to do the best you can with what you have at any given moment. And leading from that place and leading by example, as you do it, because other people will see you doing it. And it will give them freedom to do the same and permission to Yeah, permission to be a work in progress.
Brooke
Yeah, yeah. And if you don't speak the meatheads are gonna keep rising to the top.
Nikki Groom
Oh, the meatheads than me.
Brooke
Yeah, Nikki, you have been gracious enough to share with our listeners a free chapter of your book, and you know that you have your podcast did you want to share with folks like, what they can find in those places so that if they want to hear more from you, they can they can direct themselves to the right place? Yeah,
Nikki Groom
of course. So I did write a book called power of your own. And you can find the free chapter at Nicki groom.com forward slash book. I do have a podcast called movement makers Brook should be on there by the time you listen to this episode. So definitely hop on over and listen to our chat when the the roles are reversed somewhat. And I've had loads of great conversations with so many amazing folks. You can also find that on my website, Nikki grimm.com, forward slash podcast or on Spotify, Apple podcasts wherever you listen to podcasts. And you can also find me on social media. So I'm pretty much everywhere at Nicki groom. I'm very active on Instagram. If not Somebody's on my feet in my stories and in my DMs. So come on over, give me a shout tell me that you heard this interview, and I'd love to connect with you.
Brooke
He's amazing. I'll put all of that in the show notes as well, for everybody who's listening. You want to find more from Nikki, thank you. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you wanted to make sure to leave our listeners with today? You're allowed to say? No, I say that all the time. You can break this rule. That's question. But if there is anything,
Nikki Groom
I am just so grateful that we had this conversation. I think we talked about some really important things. And yeah, if if anything that I said, gave someone else a little bit more confidence in using their voice and creating the change that that they want in the world, then my work has done. So I just appreciate the platform and the opportunity.
Brooke
Yeah, thank you. Um, I'm appreciate you being here. We I had multiple people say to me, you know, Nikki groom, right? And I'm like, No, I don't, but now like, No, I don't. And then I like found you. And then somebody else like that same week was like, I feel like you need to connect with this person. I was like, okay, all right. I've heard you all. I'm finding my people. And then very small world, I found out that you live in the town that I used to live in. Yeah, that's right. I'd
Nikki Groom
forgotten about that. We totally need to have an in person meetup at some point
Brooke
Yeah. Like, what is going on? I mean, I'm on a different Coast now. But like, my family lives very close to you. I spent a lot of time in that town. I saw you post something. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I used to work there. And I lived like the island next. And you were like, I live here. I was like, what?
Nikki Groom
Yeah, I used to live in Providence. But now I live in Newport. And it's beautiful. Yeah, I love living here. And you know that I don't need to tell you. So that would be really fun. If you are ever over this
Brooke
way. That would be the next time that I'm over that way. I will have to get in touch with you. How long have you been there currently? Since 2020? Yeah. Okay. All right. Cool. So I left there like 10 years ago, but I love having it as a place to visit. I mean, it's a beautiful place to have family. So that like it's a place that I have to go back to. Yeah, and I just look at the ocean. Yes.
Nikki Groom
It is cold today, though. So December is not the time to be in Newport, Rhode Island. No. And you know, the funny thing is that for
Brooke
the longest time, I only ever went home for the holidays. And I went home for I mean, sadly, it was for my grandmother's Memorial, but it was over the summer. And I was like this is like a couple years ago and I was like what have I been doing? Like I need to I need to no longer come home in the holidays and like be like you're not gonna see me for Christmas. But you will see me at a random moment. Yeah, in the summer. You go to New England summers are just Yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah, you got that twisted. You gotta figure it out. I gotta get my shit together. Nikki, this was so much fun. Thank you so much.
Nikki Groom
This was really fun. Thank you very much for having me.